Across The Way Thread #23292
Questioning new documentary, Who Killed River Phoenix
Created Byo-turn
Created DateWed, Nov 21, 2012
Created Time05:40PM GMT

UserDate
o-turn11/21/2012 5:40:01 PM
BARRY12/25/2012 3:50:01 PM
BARRY12/25/2012 3:50:19 PM
BARRY12/25/2012 3:50:19 PM
popularthinksAA12/25/2012 3:50:01 PM
buddyhollybuddyholly12/25/2012 3:50:01 PM
Pescado1/21/2013 3:20:00 AM
browncaroline991/22/2013 2:10:00 PM
rek1/23/2013 3:30:00 PM
o-turn1/23/2013 9:40:00 PM
Pescado2/15/2013 7:33:46 PM
browncaroline992/16/2013 2:00:00 PM
o-turn4/23/2013 4:40:07 PM
Total Messages For This Thread: 13
AuthorMessage #71394
PescadoSubjectRe: Questioning new documentary, Who Killed River Phoenix
PostedFri, Feb 15, 2013 07:33PM GMTMethodWeb-Site
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Hi O-turn,
Right on. I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful reply, and taking the time to share your opinion. I apologize in advance for my verbosity ? I am somewhat stoned and expansive at the moment.

At a high level, my logic is that multiple people who were very close to River have a feeling that something darker was at play. This is an indicator to me. I do not claim to be close to River, nor to know the truth about that fateful night. That being said, I do see a pattern ? a pattern of people close to River speaking a common thread of thought. A thought strong enough to still be in their minds to this day. This in itself does not mean anything to you ? and that is perfectly understandable. That this does mean something to others is understandable too.

Unfortunately, we are both being forced to presume for River ? you presuming one way, some others presuming the other way. I myself am not totally sure either way yet ? but feel there is more to the story than what is on the surface. It is impossible not to presume in this case - we are all guilty of it, regardless of which side you lean.

You wrote, ?I, personally, do not believe we should be justifying our own need for the truth by blindly convincing ourselves that it is what River Phoenix would want. I think it is arrogant.?

Your statement, your thought on this topic, is also as you put it, ??a matter of opinion and is based squarely on the belief system of an individual.? You ?think? it is arrogant ? this thought itself is very strongly rooted in your own belief system. Meaning, you have your own strong feelings about what happened ? and that?s totally cool with me.

To be clear, I have in no way ?blindly convinced? myself of anything. My own natural (initial) instinct as a former drug user and someone who spent a fair amount of time in both the LA and Bay Area music scenes of the early 90?s ? was that this was simply an accident ? River letting loose during a stressful period of his young life and getting ?bitten? by his risky behavior. That being said, it is curious in the least to see a pattern of comments from those close to River that this was something more ? something darker. To observe this pattern, find it more than curious and then ponder on it?s meaning does not equate a ?yearning after something macabre?.

In a Confucius manner, to be fair, it could be said that those who share your views, ?yearn for something mundane.? Your specific view is based on a strong belief system as well...

You wrote, ?If I detail how River came to me in a dream and told me that he is sick to the back teeth of people prying into his private life and hounding his family and friends, does that make my spiritual experience less valid than Barry's or yours??

Not at all ? sarcasm aside, your spiritual experience would be just as valid. Have you had this dream? If so, it could very well mean exactly what it sounds like. If it moved you profoundly ? it could very well mean something. Barry stated that he never had a dream like his before or after ? and I feel that at least to Barry, this is the truth as he knows it. It was a unique and moving experience. This dream meant something to Barry and that is kinda interesting to me. Similar to how a person may say they have had an out of body experience ? whether you believe they did or not ? this is the ?truth? to them ? and the truth as they know it.

I study mysteries in life and ponder possibilities ? some may call me na?ve or ignorant ? some may call me open and intuitive.

I am deeply curious about the Human Condition ? and Quantum Physics, Consciousness and our Quantum Interconnectedness, G?del's incompleteness theorems, The Theory of Everything and all ranges of possibilities in between. We know that molecules can be split, and react simultaneously when half the globe apart. We have no idea how this ?communication? works to any extent of comprehension. Follow incompleteness theorems we know that chaos is pattern and patterns devolve into chaos ? and that given pure mathematical probabilities, the odds of a parallel universe existing is more of a fact and not that of projection.

I respect your passionate views and beliefs. In the end we all have our own reality based upon our own consciousness and belief systems ? from religion to agnosticism, from belief in spirits to belief in none -- I guess this is one of the puzzles of human consciousness. As you indicated regarding Barry?s dream, this topic itself, ??will be up for debate until we all cross over and discover the truth, or abruptly cease to exist one day.?

~Peace
AuthorMessage #71398
browncaroline99SubjectRe: Questioning new documentary, Who Killed River Phoenix
PostedSat, Feb 16, 2013 02:00PM GMTMethodWeb-Site
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Well said, Pescado! Couldn`t have said it better!

Have a great weekend!

Caroline
AuthorMessage #71426
o-turnSubjectRe: Questioning new documentary, Who Killed River Phoenix
PostedTue, Apr 23, 2013 04:40PM GMTMethodWeb-Site
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Pescado wrote:
--At a high level, my logic is that multiple people who were very close to River have a feeling that something darker was at play. This is an indicator to me. I do not claim to be close to River, nor to know the truth about that fateful night. That being said, I do see a pattern? a pattern of people close to River speaking a common thread of thought. A thought strong enough to still be in their minds to this day. This in itself does not mean anything to you?--

My logic speaks more to me of the people who have not spoken out. Those being the people who were there. And the people who were there were not 'hangers on' with various loyalties to other people.. they were his brother and his sister and his friends. This tells me that the people who were there know exactly what went down, otherwise there would have been a criminal investigation pursued.
Since there was not, since there was a massive hush up from these particular people, my logic tells me that whatever information is not public is not public because it was not considered in the best interests of River's memory to divulge- or was considered information that had River lived he would have prefered not to be disclosed to a baying public.

Pescado wrote:
--Unfortunately, we are both being forced to presume for River. you presuming one way, some others presuming the other way. I myself am not totally sure either way yet ? but feel there is more to the story than what is on the surface. It is impossible not to presume in this case - we are all guilty of it, regardless of which side you lean.--

Based on my opinions above, I see the more humane and sensible option is to presume that whatever happened has been kept to close family and friends who believe this is in River's best interests. I trust that. The difference with our presumptions is that you would rather know what the people involved apparently think is none of your business whereas I am fine with not knowing. My state of affairs does not change and I do not potentially pull River's nearest and dearest into the firing line, whereas people who presume the alternative for River (that he wishes you all to know what 'really happened') will potentially lead to damaging results for his family and his friends.

Pescado wrote:
--You wrote, "I, personally, do not believe we should be justifying our own need for the truth by blindly convincing ourselves that it is what River Phoenix would want. I think it is arrogant."
Your statement, your thought on this topic, is also as you put it, "a matter of opinion and is based squarely on the belief system of an individual." You "think" it is arrogant? this thought itself is very strongly rooted in your own belief system. Meaning, you have your own strong feelings about what happened.--

It is arrogant. We do not know any 'truth' because the people closest to River, the people who knew River best have kept it from the public (us). They knew him, they can make that call. People who are out of this loop, people who decide that River wants us to know what happened and then decide to go out of their way to dig up the dirt and make sure that is the case while convincing themselves they are doing it 'for River' is arrogance by definition.

Pescado wrote:
--To be clear, I have in no way "blindly convinced" myself of anything. My own natural (initial) instinct as a former drug user and someone who spent a fair amount of time in both the LA and Bay Area music scenes of the early 90?s ? was that this was simply an accident. River letting loose during a stressful period of his young life and getting "bitten" by his risky behavior. That being said, it is curious in the least to see a pattern of comments from those close to River that this was something more- something darker. To observe this pattern, find it more than curious and then ponder on it's meaning does not equate a "yearning after something macabre".--

In my opinion the people who hold to this notion that "something darker" took place are only privvy to certain elements of the story and have been closed off to a full explination and therefore see something sinister in that.
This does not automatically mean what took place was sinister, the most likely senario is that what it means is that the full story being public record would hurt people River probably wouldn't want hurt.

The logic predominently lies in the fact that no criminal investigation was pursued by the Phoenix family.
This would point very much to the possibility of Rain and Joaquin being hurt emotionally, reputationally or both and to River's reputation being damaged further by whatever happened.

For myself, I have no interest in seeing River's siblings being hauled through the gutter (something, we can safely say, he most certainly would not want) for the sake of a director retriving some sort of profile.
Total Messages: 13 Page 3 of 3
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